more conditioning?!

Hi everyone,
I'm chemistry student.. I want to make shampoo for me and close family.. I start with formula that i create.. But after five days of using.. I don't feel the expected conditioning.. My hair still dry and static.. But the lather, cleaning and appearance of the shampoo are very good.
The formula:
Water a.q to 100
SLES (8% ACTIVE)
CAPB (2.5% ACTIVE)
Cocoamido DEA (1.5% ACTIVE)
Glycerin 2%
Polyquaternium-10 0.25%
Dimethicone 1%
Cetyl alcohol 2%
Polyquaternium-7 2%
Preservative a.q
Pearling agent 2%
Menthol 0.5%
Fragrance (menthol) 0.5%
Citric acid a.q

Ph=5.5 active surfactants=12%

I don't test stability yet.. My question is: what can i do to feel more conditioning? What to increase or decrease in this formula in your opinion?

P.s: Glycol distreate, guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, trimethylglycine, polyquat h-81, PEGs are not available where i live! :/ -

Comments

  • YMFYMF Member
    edited October 2015
    I don't use distilled water.. I boil tap water (that i drink) for 20 minutes
    Can it cause any problem?
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Not good to use tap water. Might be full of salts.
    What is the pH?
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • YMFYMF Member
    Thanks for your respond.. Next time i'll use distilled water, ph=5.5
    What u suggest?
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    5.5 is perfect. Adding 1 to 1.5% of Lamesoft PO-65 should help. Or a solubilised ester.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • YMFYMF Member
    Ok.. Thanks Belassi ^_^
    I'll try it..another question, Do you think if i increase dimethicone or pq-10 could cause build up on hair? Or help in that situation?
  • YMFYMF Member
    Does tween 20 and tween 80 work here? If yes, which is better? How much use?
  • Tweens are surfactants, I think that they are just going to help solubilise oils and maybe help in foam generation, i will bet for adding more pq-10 will help a lot,  btw why dont you try to make a conditioner to be used after the wash.
  • YMFYMF Member
    edited October 2015
    Someday later i'll make conditioner, but i see 2in1 shampoo easier to use :')
    Thanks for your comment, i'll try more pq-10 :-)
  • i gave up trying to make a 2&1 shampoo mostly because the no availability of raw materials in my country, and i think that 2&1 has the disadvantage that it comes with no enough mousturizer and conditioners agents for any type of hair, are more expensive and it rinses to fast with water minimizing the time of contact.    Behentrimonium chloride and/or centrimonium chloride with pq-7 / pq-10 are given me a good antistatic effect
  • YMFYMF Member
    I have the same problem in my country :/
    Actually before shampoo i tried to make styling wax but i give up for the same reason :/ i hope to achieve progress in shampoo :-)
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Remove the cetyl alcohol.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    2 in 1 shampoos are always a compromise. They can't clean as well as a pure shampoo, and they can't condition as well as a pure conditioner.

    Look up "silicone deposition on hair" on google to find some hints.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • YMFYMF Member
    Belassi thank u for generous comments.. You said solubilised ester could help.. Could tween 20 or 80 help? If yes, how much to use?

    Bobzchemist thanks for your comment, i totally agree with u :-)
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    I think you're starting with a formula that is too complicated.

    If you want to make something more conditioning you want to start simple.  First make a base formula which could be....

    Water a.q to 100 
    SLES (8% ACTIVE) 
    CAPB (2.5% ACTIVE) 
    Cocoamido DEA (1.5% ACTIVE)
    Preservative a.q 
    Pearling agent 2% 
    Menthol 0.5% 
    Fragrance (menthol) 0.5% 
    Citric acid a.q 

    Ph=5.5 active surfactants=12%

    Then add your conditioning agents one at a time.

    Glycerin 2% - I doubt this will have any effect on anything in your formula. It can be left out.

    Polyquaternium-10 0.25% - This will have a conditioning effect but can also build up on hair. If you use it for a few weeks your hair will start to feel dull and coated.

    Dimethicone 1% - This is good but tough to make stable in a formula. Also can build up.

    Polyquaternium-7 2% - This is a really high level but in truth I've never noticed much effect of PQ-7 in shampoo formulas.

    You might try Hydroxypropyl Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Another possibility is to replace the CAPB with Dehyton AB 30, a similar betaine that possesses an extra nitrogen ion giving a cationic effect.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • YMFYMF Member
    Thank you Perry for your comment.. I love your site, it's very useful.

    I use glycerin for disslove menthol and pq-10 faster. Anyway, i'll left it out of the formula.

    I heard that pq-7 recommended usage up to 5%. Anyway, if it's not effective in shampoo then it's out of formula.

    Guer hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride is not available where i live.

    I read once that pq-10 has lower build up potential than other polyquatinuims. And it's available where i live.. So i used it :-)

    Also, i read today about pq-44.. It's very effective conditioner, has slightly build up potential.. Designed as alternative to guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride that has high build up potential.. But frequently it's not available where i live too.

    So i'm thinking to buy some raw materials from another country (i don't know if it will work, because i live in Syria and it hard little bit to deliver it to me)
    What do you think is better guer hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, dimethicone, cetrimonium chloride and pq-10 OR just pq-10 and pq-44?


    Another question could it possible that the shampoo not give me the excepted conditioning because it have alot of ions (like sodium) that prevent conditioning effect?!
  • YMFYMF Member
    Thank u belassi for your suggestions..
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    If you're using Glycerin as a processing aid then there is no downside to including it in your formula. It doesn't give much conditioning effect but it doesn't hurt either (except make the formula a little more expensive).

    Cetrimonium Chloride will not work in a shampoo. 

    Dimethicone will give the most noticeable effect in my experience.

    PQ-10 is the cationic polymer conditioning standard. All others try to out perform it. PQ-44 might but I haven't worked with it.

    I've never seen a system where excessive Sodium ions caused a reduction in conditioning.
  • pmapma Member
    "Polyquaternium-10 0.25% - This will have a conditioning effect but can also build up on hair. If you use it for a few weeks your hair will start to feel dull and coated." 

    So, do you think it makes sense when women often change the shampoo because they say the hair "gets used" to the shampoo? Many women have several shampoo brands to prevent the hair "gets used"... 
  • YMFYMF Member
    Oh thanks Perry, very useful information ^_^
  • @ YMF

    Is HoneyQuat available for you, and if so would you consider using it?
  • YMFYMF Member
    Thanks MichelleReece for your suggestion.. I'll look for it.. If it's available and could help.. Why not! :-D
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    Build-up of cationic polymers and silicones could be one rationale for people claiming their hair "gets used to" a shampoo.

    I think it is more a psychological effect more than something they actually notice but I could be wrong. I often am.
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    Oh, no, Perry - wrong? Surely not you.  ;)
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • Dehyquart is good for conditioner? 
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Yes.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
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