colloidal oatmeal shampoo

BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
The vet recommended that I use a colloidal oatmeal shampoo on my dog. I ground up some oatmeal into fine powder using a pestle and mortar, but when I mix it with the shampoo, the water makes the particles swell - a LOT. What's the best way? Use a high shear mixer AFTER I mix the powder in?
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Comments

  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    If they swell, the particles aren't fine enough to make a colloidal suspension.

    Sounds like this is urgent, so can you get your hands on the colloidal oat meal bath powder by Aveeno? (Aveeno Soothing Bath Treatment)  http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=16475&catid=290055&aid=338666&aparam=16475&kpid=16475&CAWELAID=120142990000054905&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15436315333&CATCI=pla-87145509384

    It comes in packets, and should mix into shampoo easily. Maybe pre-mix with glycerine.

    If it weren't an emergency, I'd just buy some from makingcosmetics, or get some from these guys:

    https://www.in-cosmetics.com/__novadocuments/2743
    http://www.in-cosmetics.com/__novadocuments/6306

    If you absolutely have to make it yourself, I think you'll need a coffee/spice grinder or a kitchen blender to get the particles fine enough.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Aha! Thank you! I have Gluadin W40 in my lab supplies, I use it in the conditioner, but not the WLM. I do have a spice grinder though. Bringing things in from the USA takes time and sometimes fails, I'll try to reduce it fine enough.
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  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    That aveeno bath powder has been a lifesaver in my house a number of times. If you folks don't have it in drugstores in Mexico, this might be a very good business opportunity.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    It is available here through Amazon.mx but the price is wildly excessive, $41! I checked pharmacy outlets for it. - No, doesn't appear to be stocked. One possible reason is that hardly anyone takes a bath here in Mexico, showers only.
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  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    But do most people have batch tubs, or are they dedicated shower stalls? This stuff is great for itchy and/or sunburned skin, even mosquito bites. I know that Aveeno sells a whole lot of it up here.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    The only people who have bath tubs are the rich, who have Jacuzzis. This is one of the reasons why I haven't emulated Lush (our business plan is similar) with their bath-bombs. I don't want to risk customers calling us and saying "your bath bomb ruined our Jacuzzi"!

    I just made about 200 grams of it in the spice grinder. Ground the hell out of it. After sieving, I tested it and obtained about 90% 'milk' dispersion and about 10% tiny particles that settle at the bottom.
    Now I have to think about producing it.

    Thoughts:
    1. It will act as a thickener probably, so I may need to adjust the viscosity by decreasing the thickener (a good thing, Glucamate VLT is expensive)
    2. Since the shampoo won't be clear any more I had better make it pearlescent which is hot process.
    3. If hot process, presumably I need to avoid cooking the oats, so it's going to be added during cool-down phase I assume? <50C?

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  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    I can't see that grinding it yourself is going to be worth your time. Are you sure that you can't bring it in from Canada or the US?

    And yes, I agree with adding during cool-down.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    I can bring it in, but only via post, which "usually" works for quantities up to a couple of kilos. Any method other than post fails at the customs. It's like a Guild system from the 18th century! So for instance I don't mind importing things like glycrrhizic acid from China which I use at 0.2%, but I think oatmeal isn't sufficiently high value. However I live in a city that's full of industries that have mills, it is not inconceivable I could have 100Kg milled if such a product took off. But then I'd have other problems to worry about.
    Anyway I will do a product development on it and keep the thread updated.
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  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    Good, sounds like a fun project. My best guess on milling is that they're using liquid CO2 or liquid nitrogen to keep the mills from gumming up. Without it, the milling will take much longer.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    edited April 2016
    I ground it and sieved it until it was like talcum powder. Then I made a 10% by weight mixture with water. After about 10 minutes 90% had fallen to the bottom making a thick paste.
    Then I blended it using the high shear blender for ages.
    Same result.
    Obviously this isn't good enough. The problem is I really can't see any way to make sure it stays suspended without using a carbomer type system such as Aqua SF-1 and I have already decided ages ago that carbomers and shampoo are things I do not like to put together.
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  • @Belassi - do you have access to hydroxypropyl starch phosphate?

    Might be worth a try to do a variation of AkzoNobel's Squeeze & Clean Washing Paste formula on UL Prospector. I'm assuming the thicker the product the easier to suspend less than colloidal oatmeal.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Aha I see what you mean. That would imply a tube product. Unfortunately we are orders of magnitude away from being in the tube marketplace. No, I don't have that kind of thing available. 
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  • A tottle might work.

    I've got some toothpaste packaged in one. Works well. Hate fiddling with toothpaste caps in the morning.

    Making Cosmetics sells hp starch... http://www.makingcosmetics.com/HP-Starch_p_292.html
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    edited May 2016
    I do have 250mL tottles in stock. So if I have this correct, the concept is to make it so thick that it's a paste, squeeze it out of a depressible tube or tottle? Filling is going to be a challenge! (Laughing)
    I think I will do a bit of research into the LOIs of existing products.
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  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Right, I made up 250mL. Basically it is Iselux + CAPB, and about 16% by weight of oat flour. Pretty thick. Poured it into a tottle and will test it just for fun. I bet it separates.

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  • Interested to hear how it goes!
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    After 1 day I can see it separating. I can fix it though; obviously the oatmeal is heavier than the water, so I will have to get some heavy water. (joking)
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  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    if you do make sure you get some uranium-235 as well, so it stays heavy
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Packaging might be an option. I think there's a cement mixer bottle listed in Ali Baba. Takes two AA batteries.
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  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Seriously though, I think I will try hydrolysing the oat powder using papain and then heat treating it prior to incorporation into the shampoo. I have plenty of papain extract.
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  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    Let us know how that works out. Now you have me really curious.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • Mike_MMike_M Member

    For colloidal oatmeal you'll want as close to 1% total formula as you can get. Not easy with something lower viscosity like a shampoo or body wash. Aveeno has a baby care wash but it's not 1%, we are their primary competition in this therapeutic market. Licorice root extract is a really nice addition to the formulation as well for anti-inflammation and anti-redness. 

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Only 1%? Wow. With 16% it became thinner again on day two. I do have licorice extract in stock.
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  • Mike_MMike_M Member
    Yea I think we've gone as high as 3% in some creams but 1% is pretty much what you'd see. If you're seeing higher percentages of oatmeal it's because Aveeno uses that tri blend that includes concentrate in combination with the colloidal oatmeal. For a shampoo think something along the lines of a head and shoulders you'll be able to get some pretty good stability with that type of viscosity.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Right. I am surprised they use so little, I wouldn't have thought it would have any effect at 1%
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  • Mike_MMike_M Member
    In  the US it's an active ingredient so if you claim against it you have to provide extra claim support. Our best seller is at 1% and the clinicals are great I've seen people with almost debilitating eczema have relatively rapid relief.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    inactivation rate for papain appears to be 10 minutes at 83C.
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  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Update: I have tried papain but at any reasonable concentration it doesn't seem to have any effect.
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  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Now working with potassium hydroxide. Interesting. I have managed to hydrolyse it and now have a tan coloured, very viscous, fluid with some remnants at the bottom. I will allow solids to separate out for 24 hours then separate and neutralise the fluid with citric acid. I should end up with hydrolysed oat protein and potassium citrate.
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  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Didn't need 24 hours. I decanted 90% of it leaving the remaining undigested solids. Then I neutralised it with citric acid to pH=7. Interesting: the tan colour changed back into the colour of oatmeal. The result is a gum, with foaming properties. I painted it onto my left arm and let it dry. It left an invisible film with skin-smoothing properties.
    I think I am going to make a larger quantity of this, say a couple of kilos, and test it in hair and skin products, beginning with shampoos and conditioner.
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  • @Mike_M ;

    How do you test for colloidal oatmeal in the final product?

  • DoreenDoreen Member
    edited January 2017
    I get my fine powdered oatmeal from the supermarket in the bakery section. I also couldn't get the whole particles fine enough with a mortar or a kitchen blender.
    Maybe there are supermarkets or bakery shops over there aswell that sell the fine powder? 


    I see you already have a solution. As fine as talcum, nice!
  • @Belassi, sorry I now see it's an old thread.
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