Denatonium Benzoate

BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
This is beginning as a personal problem but may have a niche market.
One of my dogs has developed a habit of licking specific points (front leg, hind leg, hip) to the point where she removes the hair and creates an open lesion. It's been extremely difficult to stop her doing this, I have had to resort to using a cone-collar.
Now, I know that Denatonium Benzoate is used in commercial products to stop nail biting and I've discovered one sold to stop cats eating their bandages after surgery and it's also used to stop deer destroying trees.
I am thinking of formulating a shampoo that I can use on her so that wherever she begins to lick, it will taste horrible.
Have any of you used this substance? I am wondering what percentage to use in the shampoo. I just ordered a 10 gram sample from China, it should be here in a month. Actually, thinking about it, a shampoo is rinse off, no use. Perhaps a body spray based on 20% alcohol? It is freely soluble in water and alcohol.
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Comments

  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    you only need a very, very small amount for it to be effective - it's extremely potent

    in the products where we use it, the inclusion level is 0.07%, and the material we buy in is an 0.25% solution, giving an overall active concentration of 1.75 ppm

    although this is not a concern with a 10 gram sample, take particular care not to have any spillages from larger containers - because if do, you'll actually be able to taste it for the rest of the day, and it will ruin the taste of anything you might try to eat or drink
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Thanks Bill. Noted! I'll be extremely careful with even the 10 gram sample. I'll try it at 0.1% in the spray, to begin with. 10g would be enough to make 10 Kg of product!
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Belassi--why not use 3A alcohol denatured with brucine--touted as most bitter denaturant known? Dont know tox so would check it  out .
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Unobtainable here in Mexico. Thanks for the tip though.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • johnbjohnb Member, Professional Chemist
    edited April 2017
    Ragarding brucine. It is an extremely toxic alkaloid closely related to strychnine - the poison of choice in a lot of early to mid-20th century crime novels, in particular Agatha Christie.

    Strychnine was used for poisoning dogs, wolves and foxes and I seem to recall (although I can't find the reference) that these species are unable to detect the bitter taste of strychnine thus avoiding aversion reactions when administered to the animals. This ageusia most likely carries over to brucine, considering the close similarity in structure.

    Denatonium benzoate is more bitter than brucine and much less toxic (acute po LD50 in rats of 485-740 mg/kg vs 1mg/Kg for brucine)
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    @Belassi is that a powder or a solution?

    if it's a powder, 0.01% will be plenty - 0.1% is a bit excessive in my view

    (also, my comments about spillages are more relevant to solutions)
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    It's the pure powder (95% according to the spec.)
    OK, I'll begin with 0.01%. I'll have to do dilutions! I do have a high accuracy scale but even so ... and I will make very sure not to spill any of it. Getting to the point where I am thinking of installing a fume cupboard with extract fan.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    The powder just arrived from China. It came in a padded envelope with "tool" written on the customs form. It amazes me that the postal people don't seem to bother with packets of powder... I thought "is this the denat or is this something else I ordered." Normally I never taste chemicals for obvious reasons. By golly this stuff is appalling!
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Well this seems like it might work, this idea. I dissolved some in alcohol and then diluted it with some botanicals such as aloe vera, added a preservative and tried it. The following day my dog looked at where she's been licking, went to lick, thought better of it and made a wry face. I wonder if this could be a niche product.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • @Belassi what was the colour of the powder?  
    Its being used in liquid soaps and shampoos?! any information about this?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatonium 

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    It is a yellow powder. I think you've got the wrong idea about its purpose.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Belassi  Nice going could be a nice niche product and very useful!
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