Natural preservatives

I understand that with the new ISO on natural cosmetics, products preserved with the mixture potassium sorbate/sodium benzoate can obtain the COSMOS/Ecocert label, but not the certification 100% natural. 

Comments

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    Probably because Potassium Sorbate and Sodium Benzoate are not naturally produced.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited March 2018
    If you get the endorsement of the Certifying body, in my opinion, the 100% Natural moniker is of limited value. If you get the third party certification that should be your focus. I see these certifications as a way to get away from the more marketing driven verbiage anyway.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • I believe they allow it because its nature identical. Or I believe it is so there are preservatives on the natural list that work.
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • GuntherGunther Member
    100% natural preservatives are hard to figure out
    please let us know if you find one

    We are developing a 100% natural shampoo and body wash line
    based on vegetable oils saponified with KOH from burnt wood

    100% natural preservatives got us stuck
    I proposed Ethyl alcohol as the main preservative, sterile filtering liquid ingredients to reduce bacteria.

    As secondary preservatives We're currently considering some other vegetable oil with mild antiseptic activity, and physically processing lemon juice to get citric acid from it without chemicals.
    We almost gave up with processing yogurt to get lactic acid to lower pH.

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    We are developing a 100% natural shampoo and body wash line
    based on vegetable oils saponified with KOH from burnt wood
    Then we'll see you back here in a few months asking how to make proper shampoo. Soap is just horrible, it turns the hair into straw and deposits insoluble salts. And the idea of using ethanol as a shampoo preservative is ridiculous.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    I'm curious, how is saponification considered a natural chemical reaction?
    It doesn't occur in nature except when people create the conditions for it to happen. How is this different than any other synthetic chemical reaction?
  • GuntherGunther Member
    edited May 2018
    @Perry I totally agree that centuries-old shampoo recipes are still man-made
    it's just customers preference for old methods perceived as less chemically intensive.
    (customers and management erk when I say that opium is 100% natural, but not any good for you, even if you cut it with a natural stone or wood piece to preserve stone-age methods, so I just muted the natural vs man-made endless debate)


    @Belassi I agree that saponified shampoo doesn't work nearly as well as synthetic ones, although still acceptable as body wash.

    Several challenges ahead
    1 How to get saponified soaps to properly dissolve
    starting with coconut oil and KOH seems to be a start:
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02645899

    2 How to get a 100% natural acid to lower pH without chemically intensive methods (like citric acid from fruits or lactic acid from yogurt)

    3 How to get saponified soaps to remain soluble despite lowered pH.

    4 100% natural thickeners

    5 100% natural preservatives.
    Any suggestions for 1-5?


    Natural shampoo/bodywash is just one of many projects, synthetic ones are already underway.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    (3) is impossible.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    It's tough to give any advice unless you provide a definition of what you consider "natural". 
  • Preservative Leucidal
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited May 2018
    I'm skeptical of the effectiveness of Leucidal.

    https://cen.acs.org/articles/92/i23/Close-Scrutiny-Cosmetic-Preservatives-Continues.html

    @lucy - have you tried it out? What type of system was it used in?

  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Leucidal SF Liquid had very poor yeast/mold coverage. If you like that product, the Leucidal Complete or Leucidal Max (newest) are much better. Again, unless you can define a clear picture of what you consider "natural", the search for ingredients in this category will be difficult and a barrier to R&D.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Hello Perry nice to meet you again. I was a member when you first started and so impressed that you have built it up to become such an international site. Anyways I too am skeptical of this preservative. Australia demands natural/organic, we are going through a massive cult like movement with essential oils mainly endorsed by MLM's like DoTerra.
    So I am about to try it out with a client, I am teaching her from the ground up and she is starting to realise that organic may not always be the only way to go especially since she is starting with a facial toner. The alcoholic astringents may help it along the way, but we will see what happens. I want her to trial Leucidal and Euxyl k712 and go from there.
    I will be interested to see the comparison. I believe most formulas using Leucidal include Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate as well. That says it all really!

    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • To scare you even further, I found a new skincare range in Oz using GFE...
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    Oh my!  GFE? I'm sure Luecidal can be effective in some systems since Active Micro Technologies probably sells to some larger clients. But I sure wouldn't trust it. 

    PS.  Welcome back! It's great to have your contributions again.  
  • jeremienjeremien Member
    edited May 2018
    Dr Catherine Pratt      i try Leucidal SF complete at 4% without any other preservative,  and Challenge  failed  :(


  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    I have used Leicidal Complete in a full line of Shampoos and Conditioners (8 products in all). We used the Leucidal Complete at 4% with a chelant (Dermofeel PA-3) and all 8 products passed PET/Challenge Testing.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Wouldn’t ethanol as a preservative kill the foam?
  • Microformulation  in my case it was a face cream. I believe that shampoo/conditioners contain high amount of ionic species (salt, surfactant, polymer..) that already limit the microorganism growth. 
    Why do you use the Dermofeel Pa-3 that contains ethanol and not the Dermofeel PA without ethanol?
  • GuntherGunther Member
    Any naturally preservative that you guys and girls can think of
    as long as it's found in plants (animals is mostly taboo)
    that can be extracted and purified by simple methods like pressing or heating
    and by simple extractions with water or alcohol (then evaporating the solvent if needed)?



    @Christopher I agree that ethanol is far from ideal a preservative.
    On The Other Hand extracting Benzyl alcohol from essential oils looks interesting. Even if you ain't able to totally purify it, additional compounds may help as natural fragrances.

    Natural occurrences

    Benzyl alcohol is produced naturally by many plants and is commonly found in fruits and teas. It is also found in a variety of essential oilsincluding jasminehyacinth, and ylang-ylang

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzyl_alcohol#Natural_occurrences



    @Belassi ; it looks like sticking to coconut oil and KOH seems the best way to ensure solubility.

    While you can't find bare Lauric, Myristic or Oleic acid in vegetable oils, I wonder if you can saponify their oils then wait for the insoluble ones to precipitate, without needing a centrifuge.

    Summary

    Solubility data are provided and collected for the pure sodium and potassium soaps. Hydrolysis obscures the temperatures of solution but is obviated by the presence of a small excess of alkali. Each sodium soap has a large range of temperature between fair and high solubility, whereas the potassium soaps go abruptly into solution, at almost the same temperature and concentration of each soap.

    The only soaps that are even moderately soluble at room temperature are potassium laurate, myristate, and oleate, the potassium salt of acids from coconut oil, and the sodium oleate. The other sodium and potassium soaps of the saturated fatty acids require elevated temperatures for solution.

    Phase diagrams for the five commonest potassium soaps are developed and recorded.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02645899


  • Thanks Mark about the Leucidal Complete with chelant!
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    You can find preservatives that are certified by the Natural Products Association on their website.

    Remember, preservation is not simply a matter of add one ingredient.  You really should consider a hurdle technology approach incorporating chelants, glycols, pH adjusters, potentiators that disrupt the microbial cell wall.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    @Microformulation
    Regarding the Dermofeel PA-3: I read that it's not the best chelant as some bacterial species are capable of phytase synthesis.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @Doreen Interesting! I will have to read-up on it and ask my Kinetik rep regarding the issue.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Please keep us posted what your rep says, I also like using dermofeel PA-3 @Microformulation
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    I use it as it is better tolerated in today's"natural" markets. EDTA's are generally frowned upon. It is a product that Kinetik (Dr. Straetman's US Rep) pushes hard.  I guess otherwise my other option is Dissolvine GL-47-S which I also have in stock.

    I will email Kinetik right now and share their thoughts.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    @Microformulation ; @Biochemist
    This looks like an interesting read.
  • PetePete Member
    Have you considered enzymatic hydrolysis (saponification) instead of KOH then? This is certainly a natural process.
  • Are there any EDTA derivatives, or any other substances that work just like EDTA
    without bearing its name?
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Dissolvine range from AKZO, specially Dissolvine GL 38 and Dissolvine 47S. Tetrasodium Glutamat Diacetate is the INCI name. 
  • @Doreen @Gunther @Microformulation @Biochemist

    The product should be adequately preserved first - then there will be no bacteria capable of phytase synthesis.  The same could be said for esters, polysaccharides, etc. - bacteria produce enzymes to break those down as well.

  • Good point @SteveW but I just hate bacteria to have one up on me and my preservation strategy before I start ?
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    For all, I want to point out that SteveW is a Technical Representative for Kinetik. I emailed him and as a member of the board he reached out and answered directly. He is a great source of info in this matter.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • @Biochemist ; I get your point.  We take a very wide view of preservation.  With all these natural systems you have to look at all the materials in a formula as well as the pH, etc.  We do about 4 - 8 challenge tests per week to make sure our customers systems are well protected.  Nothing takes the place of rigorous PET testing.  If anyone needs help with this, please let me know. 
Sign In or Register to comment.