Can Preservative Cap-5 or Cap-2 also work as an emulsifier

arachne013arachne013 Member
edited March 2018 in General
I have a Argan/Rosehip Oil and Coconut water serum that I usually just shake before using, would either of these preservatives work as an emulsifying agent as well?

Comments

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Not at all.

    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • what about Stearic Acid? Ive never worked with it before, would this work and how is best incorporated....water, oil? Not at all?

  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Definitely not intermediate.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    No, that's not an emulsifier either. You need to start studying this if you intend continuing with cosmetic formulation.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • arachne013arachne013 Member
    edited March 2018

    I apologize for my ignorance. I'm new at the skincare/lotion aspect of making cosmetics, I mostly do the "color", i.e. eyeshadows, eyeliners, lipstick, etc. That is why I am asking these questions before I make something incredibly dangerous and bad. I had a stint as a soap-maker, and know about the dangers that would lie ahead of mixing chemicals, acids and bases, etc. all will-nilly. I was consulting everyone for a gentle way to emulsify oils and water, without the threat of burning one's skin off. Sorry if I misled you in thinking I was inexperienced, and I am in THIS arena. Again, my apologies


  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Best to begin by taking a look at SwiftCraftyMonkey. Find formulae for what you want to make. Then see if you can find the required ingredients. Obtain them, and try it out. Experimentation with ingredients teaches you how the ingredients work and what their effects are. For instance there are TWO approaches to the problem you began with. One solution is to emulsify; the other is to solubilise. 
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Thank you for the link to the website. Can you suggest a plebian method of solubilizing oil and water? 
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Solubilizing oil and water doesn't lend itself to a simpler approach. You can't oversimplify the process. When you gain some experience, you will see that there are myriad questions and factors that need to be addressed further.

    The returning error is in continually believing there is a simple workaround. There simply is not.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Again, I apologize for my ignorance in this area
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    edited March 2018
    @arachne013
    No offence, but I thought you wrote your skills in formulating were intermediate? If you would have intermediate experience in 'colour' cosmetics I think you would have had the basic knowledge to your first question.

    Really there's no need to apologize. What is it today that people seem ashamed to admit they are beginners?
  • arachne013arachne013 Member
    edited March 2018

    My questions was for more of a serum, not a lotion, cream or any "hard" product....a stable, viscous fluid. I know about formulating oil in water in lipstick using waxes, etc, I just didn't know if the same rules apply when formulating something more liquid....I was researching if you CAN include waxes in a product such as a serum, as I have not seen it on any of my labels...and from what I read, some of the ingredients in these preservatives can also act an emulsifier (unless I have read some misinformation in my searches) as well as a preservative. I am a beginner to skincare, my closest experience is with powder, not anything close to a serum. the ingredients are coconut & rosewater with argan & rosehip oil, and I've been just shaking it, but it would have been nice to have them mixed together in a stable state. If it is not possible, I am fine with that, even making it miscible would be satisfactory. And I figured if I were to get correct information in my education in this area, this site would provide amazing and correct results instead of the load of misinformation on various websites that pop up when you use a search engine, not barbs at my experience (or rather inexperience)

  • I didn't know if a saponification process or a wax was necessary or not for them to "get together"
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited March 2018
    @arachne013 I can understand if you might feel a little ganged up on, but there are some pearls here.

    Cosmetic Science is indeed a "Science", one which requires some study and some understanding of the  Fundamentals. Indeed, I will use parts of Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and other Scientific disciplines on a daily basis. If you skip or gloss over the fundamentals, it will make it harder to understand how the raw materials work, their interaction with other materials, safety, stability and other factors.

    Even a recent Chemistry graduate would have a learning curve as well when entering the Cosmetic field. Many of the raw materials are unique to this market, have unique distributors and in addition, there is a great deal of marketing which you must incorporate into the development of the Formulation.

    No offense intended, but rather this next statement is meant to ground you and direct you. One of the key tenets of learning is knowing what you do NOT know. You must accept that you are entry level at best into this field and act accordingly.  Refusing to do this and overestimating your abilities will become a barrier to future learning. There is no real and effective shortcut here. It simply does not exist.

    So, you state that you are looking for proper guidance in the Industry. As someone mentioned before, Susan Barclay Nichols's blog (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/) is a great starting point. Look at some of her starting Formulations and repeat them. During the process, look at each ingredient and find credible resources on them in order to learn their properties. If you don't have a raw material in her Formulas, GET IT. You still have some skills to master before you start looking for alternatives. Honestly, I would suggest that you do this for 3-6 month before even looking back at your product. Depending on your geographic location (this board attracts followers worldwide), there may be some courses that you can take.

    Once you gain some experience and look back at your initial posts, you will see why they evoked such a strong instinct from experienced Formulators to tell you to slow down. For example, a product which must be shaken before use is really not stable or even consistent. Consumers will not likely shake a product and you can't ensure that you exerted enough agitation to create a consistent product or "dosage" of the actives. Throwing out some materials and asking "is this an emulsifier?" shows a need to go back to basics.

    Cosmetics and Cosmetic Chemistry can be a great market to work within. Remember though that we must always ensure that we are giving the customer (or family) a safe, effective and consistent product. This is the real reason that many of us are urging you to slow down and return to basics. If you fail to do that, your products and their safety will be compromised. If you do so, your products and their safety will advance slowly as your experience and knowledge grow accordingly.

    I will sum it up and please keep in mind the reasons above. YOU ARE NOT READY YET TO MAKE A PRODUCT. DO the base work. There is no real safe and effective shortcut here.  Cosmetic Science needs to be respected. Just because you can find a blog on it doesn't mean it isn't complicated. When applied correctly and coherently, real Cosmetic Safety is up there with any of the Professional fields. You wouldn't neuter a pet by simply watching a few Youtube videos. Accordingly, you shouldn't expose a Cosmetic user to an unsafe or ineffective product based on the false assumption of "this is easy and anyone can do it." That is a quick recipe for failure.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • I completely agree and understand where you are coming from. I am still learning in the skincare area. I just figured this was the place to ask questions and get real answers, not feel ridiculed. I know I can't watch a YouTube video and then expect to be able to do it myself. As I said before, I was a soap-maker and that took a while to master. I'm trying, as said before, to copy a commercial product, which has been suggested to do, and with as few ingredients as possible in which to gain experience. I'm an aware of my limitations. But there's no reason to be sharp with someone who is coming to this site and posting, seeming inane and stupid questions, just because they are still learning. I figured this was the place to do so. Ask questions from the people who do this for a living and are more experienced. And I apologize if my inquiries seem as something that makes common sense to this community, but, again, I thought this was the place to share knowledge. 
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    The first thing to do if you want help is to list the ingredients in proper percentage form, including preservatives. You should also specify whether you want a clear product or if an emulsified (milky) product would be OK. In either case, there is a large number of possible ingredients that could work.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • arachne013arachne013 Member
    edited March 2018

    If it is clear or milky, it doesn't matter, just a viscous fluid. the list of ingredients are:

    Ingredients: Argania Spinosa (Argan) Kernel Oil, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Water, Alcohol Denat., Sodium Chloride, Leuconostoc/Radish Root Ferment Filtrate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Water, Leuconostoc Ferment Filtrate, Fragrance.


    I was going to replace the Leuconosatic Ferment with either Cap-2 or Cap-5 (just to see if it would work in its place & because I already have it on-hand but both in limited amoutns) and in my original question, would either of these two preservatives (and if so, which one) would have the effect that I was looking for as well as acting as its original function

  • arachne013arachne013 Member
    edited March 2018
    I didn't mention the rose aspect: (Rosa Centifolia) and Rosehip (Rosa canina) oil
  • arachne013arachne013 Member
    edited March 2018
    I'm not really looking to sell my products, they are more for personal use or gifts, but I don't want to give a gift of burning one's face off (or my own)
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
     in my original question, would either of these two preservatives (and if so, which one) would have the effect that I was looking for as well as acting as its original function
    - i already answered that...
    ... radish stuff is not a proper preservative. You may be getting away with it because of the ethanol content but you failed to list percentage use so, I am unable to comment.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • arachne013arachne013 Member
    edited March 2018
    The ingredient list didn't include any percentages
  • arachne013arachne013 Member
    edited March 2018
    When I originally got the bottle, it looked like a 50/50 water soluble to oil soluble....which percentages of the oils and waters that make up those percentages were not listed
  • ozgirlozgirl Member, PCF student
    I would recommend using your Argan and Rosehip Oils to create an oil based facial serum (something like this http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com.au/2009/11/facial-serum-for-dry-skin.html).

    I would then recommend starting to learn about emulsification by starting with creating a basic lotion (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/newbie-tuesday-its-time-to-make-lotion.html).

    Once you have the basics mastered you can move on to more complex products.

    It can be beneficial to look at ingredient lists in commercial products to learn about the different functions of ingredients but you also need to remember that these products were created by experienced formulators with equipment and ingredients that you may not have access to. These products cannot often be recreated by beginners.
  • Ok, awesome, thanks for the links. I will definitely check them out.
  • DASDAS Member
    This is a place to ask questions and get real answers. And that's exactly what you got. What you need to understand is this is a forum with a cientific approach, and we stick to the cientific methods. Maybe you expected that someone would tell you "use X material at Y percentage". We consider that irresponsible, and ultimately is for your own safety, either you understand why or not. 

    It's not that you are asking basic questions, it's that you are asking questions that don't make sense. If you ask a baker "I bought flour, a spoon and a cow, how do I make a cake?" don't get offended if the baker tells you to take cooking lessons first. 

    Here is a good place to start: Learn to formulate cosmetics

  • Again, thanks for the links


  • arachne013arachne013 Member
    edited March 2018

    I do understand what you are saying. Stumbling across this site was, I thought, a good addition of accumulating the proper information, as there is much misinformation out there. If it seems like one of my questions seems too primary or doesn't make sense, then just skip it.


    And again, thanks for the links

  • arachne013arachne013 Member
    edited March 2018
    And back to the original question and the title of this discussion, I now know, Cap-2 or Cap-5 will not work, (which is what I asked about to begin with) but I have seen it on some sites which were obviously incorrect. Thank you for the correction.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    edited March 2018
    The ingredient list didn't include any percentages
    None do, but when a LOI (list of ingredients) is provided by a reputable company, we have ways of estimating the % use. 
    A product that is shaken before use is generally speaking not a professional product. Where did you get this? Not ETSY I hope? That place is . . . well, I had better not say what I think.
    BTW. CAP5 or 2 is perfectly appropriate to preserve it. Radish root stuff isn't, unless the % of ethanol is high, say 30%.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    @Belassi a major multi-national haircare brander, who used to subcontract the manufacturing of one of their products to our site because it was literally impossible to make on their own plant (their minimum batch size was relatively large, and the product would separate part-way through the production run on their site), outsourced this product to a new plant they acquired abroad, and even though the product name and INCI list has not changed, the product made at this plant is as different to the one we made as chalk is to cheese, and anyone with eyes and fingers can tell it's not the same stuff

    what I'm trying to say in that wall of text is that no, lists of ingredients are never 100% reliable, regardless of where they come from
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @DAS " I bought flour, a spoon, and a cow, how do I make a cake?"

    BEST COMMENT EVER.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Argan/Rosehip Oil and Coconut water serum that I usually just shake before using
    I don't really like throwing formulations out there without having had experience in that type of product. However, this is not exactly complicated. The LOI you provided is obviously not correctly in order. Others may chime in but I would try:
    Argan/Rosehip Oil . . . 5%
    Coconut water Difficult because there are many types and strengths of coconut drink style products. But too much would be sticky. So . . . 5-10%
    Vitamin E . . . 0.1%
    Ethanol . . . 30%
    Fragrance - depends. If this is for the face, typically use 0.2% - do NOT use essential oils. At this point I would like to draw the attention of the other chemists to the recent report that many EOs are endocrine disruptors.
    Water Q/S, approx. 60%
    That amount of ETOH may or may not be enough to solubilise the oil, vitamin E, and fragrance. You would need to begin trials. Use 5000 rpm or greater high shear blender to make test samples. Measure the time to separate and the thickness of the layers.
    If it separates you will need to add a solubiliser eg/ Polysorbate 20 or HCO - which one depends on various factors I won't discuss here.
    With 30% ethanol you don't need a preservative but you will need to keep it in an airtight container or the ETOH will evaporate. The upside is that it would be COSMOS compliant according to my experience of that standard.
    The alternative approach is to use a lower level of ETOH eg 5%-10%, and an emulsifier combo and a proper preservative. I've written enough, I think.

    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    edited March 2018
    @arachne013
    There is nothing wrong with asking questions and the level you're at really doesn't matter! It is obvious that you are a beginner and there's nothing wrong with that or the questions that come with it. It's just that some people seem ashamed of it and act like they have quite some experience. This was my point. There's no need to 'prove' yourself.

    I still see myself as a beginner. That and I will never even reach the level of the scientists on here because I'm a homecrafter, not a cosmetic scientist and that's ok.
    I've been 'formulating' and preparing concoctions for about 5 years now. I've learnt a lot in those years, but still have a whole lot more to learn.
    I've made dermatological preparations for years when I was a pharmacy technician, but that's very different (standardized protocols instead of formulating and experimenting).
    Since I'm a pharmacy practitioner I don't prepare anymore, that's when I started homecrafting (I still miss preparing aseptic/sterile medication however).
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