Problem in Formula

Here's the deal something in my formula oxidises no matter what I do to prevent this from happening. Right after the preparation the cream colour is light beige and after 1 day (no matter what type of container used to store it) it starts changing into yellow and slowly goes into orange colouration. I use vitapherole70 0.1% as antioxidant, the formula contains also vitamine E acetate 1%. The oil phase of the formula mainly consists of butters and esters which both do not oxidise easily. I also use lipids (dispersed on water phase) and an active that is water dissolved and based on maltodextrin. Could it be Maltodextrin causing this shift on colouration? Please note that even though there is shift on colouration the perfume of the formula is still there, I can smell no rancidity or anything that shows that its an oil went bad. Thank you in advance
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Comments

  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    edited April 5
    Please list entire LOI. That mystery ingredient based on water and maltodextrin, what is it?
    Try a knock out experiment (know out several ingredients at once can be a fast track if you know what you're doing).
  • Can some sort of instability within the formula lead to a pro-oxidative reaction despite the use of antioxidants within the  internal phase? If for example I have not included sufficient amount of thickeners and the cream after a while starts throwing out oil, can this lead to colour shifting?

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @Dreamer77 - what makes you think it's an oxidation reaction?  Color change can be other types of reactions or physical processes.  Without your entire list of ingredients it's difficult to give you any good advice.

  • I'm afraid I can't pubblish the list of ingredients as it is a very expensive formula and it is destined to compete with formulas that sell for $1,000 per jar. I checked some samples I created in other variants containing both vitapherole70 0.1 & tocopheryl acetate 1.0 and they did not have colour shifting, compared the formulas and I have valid reason to believe that a difference in stearic acid of 0.5% may be causing this problem. Could it be true or is it in my mind?

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited April 5
    Sorry, can't help you. You might consider contacting one of the chemists here directly and hire them to help you solve the problem.
  • Was tocopheryl acetate recommended by the formulator....or you chose to add that?


  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    What is this expensive cream used for? 
  • ozgirlozgirl Member, PCF student
    @Dreamer77 You do know that if this product is a cosmetic you will have to list the ingredients on the label. So sharing them here would be no different than having them on the label.

    Most of us know know that the difference between a cream that sells for $50 and one that sells for $1000 is largely packaging and marketing not usually formulating.

    If you provide the ingredients list maybe someone can see an incompatibility between your ingredients. You do not need to provide percentages but if you want help you need to give more information.
  • I think I might have solved the problem. I eliminated one of the ingredients of the formula.

     I am using top end or high end if you prefer actives in pairs used by the manufacturers of the actives in clinical trials.

    The one I eliminated it's called Revivyl by Givaudan, it is a skin renewal accelerator with antioxidant properties and perfume fix/stabilizing claims, it has a dark orange colouration, water soluble, it is added during cool down with slow/moderate sheering (specified by the manufacturer). Its recommended use rate is from 0.1-0.5...batches I did with 0.5 ended up more orange than those with 0.1, however those with 0.1 turned a bit orange even though I had them stored in glass jars filled to the top and stored away from light. 

    The smell of the formula has not changed after removing Revivyl, I am using a stable perfume from IFF that has an odour masking technology.

    I use tocopheryl acetate for its skin antioxidant properties,its skin antiaging properties and also for the sensorial feeling it helps me create. The formula is really loaded with butters and oils mainly esters and triglycerides that are difficult to oxidise (that's why I can't understand the shift in colour).

    The formula drastically reduces all wrinkles and expression lines throughout the entire face right from the first application after 5-10 minutes from 1st application to be more exact. its not like formulas that create a soft focus effect that blurs wrinkles with polymers and in which the user has to stand still for 5 minutes or so, I could add those as well (usually polymethacrylate polymers) but it would interfere with the spreading as like I mentioned it already has a high viscosity and it would need to do the formula again from the beginning in order to achieve smooth application.  

    I have already a large group/panel of clients, msinly women, that are using it. Noone has made any remarks/complaints regarding the shift in colouration however as they all enjoy the benefits of usage. Its me that has the problem, I want the formula to remain as white as possible.


    Well, the main difference of a $50 to a $1000 cream is that the actives used are different, and thus the result is different,  then comes in the marketing packaging promotion and the middlemen up until the customer that add up cost to the final product.

    I know I will have to list all ingredients on the jar, I just don't know who might be reading all the information I am providing here and that's why I am being cautious. The ingredient list is so big that one would need half hour reading and trying to figure out to which actives it corresponds to.


  • PattsiPattsi Member
    Abdullah said:
    What is this expensive cream used for? 
    Some brands range from $500 - $1,800.

    Dreamer77 said:


    The formula drastically reduces all wrinkles and expression lines throughout the entire face right from the first application after 5-10 minutes from 1st application to be more exact. 


    Are you interested in letting go of the formula and IP with full range tests from Intertek and clinical trial subjects 200 for $13.3M(negotiable)?
    Or if you are a professional formulator with GMP certified facility, how about $33.31M + annual MCQ production contract?

    But maybe fix the stability issue first.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited April 6
    @Dreamer77 - While I do believe it is helpful for marketers to believe their own marketing, formulating chemists respond better to evidence rather than marketing stories. 

    "High end" actives is just a marketing story told by raw material makers to get formulators to use their ingredients. These ingredient don't actually provide a consumer noticeable improvement. Although I am always on the lookout for evidence to show my evaluation is wrong so if you have scientifically controlled evidence you find compelling, please let me know.

    In fact, I may be so bold to say that you there is no skin cream you can buy that will work better than the relatively cheap Olay Regenerist line. And even in that line of products the "active" ingredients they talk about in their advertising are not the things that actually make the products work.

    I'm sure your product works perfectly fine & it's good you've solved your stability problem. But I'm also sure that if you tested your formula in blinded fashion vs Olay, there would be little to no difference.

    This is probably not something you would want to do however, as I said at the outset, it is helpful for marketers to believe their own marketing.
  • I have solved the problem already, formulated it twice since last post and accelerated the stability issue by heating it up in temperature over 50C with no colouration whatsoever.

     When I say highend actives its not what marketers say for them but what I believe according to my experience is really high end.

    In the formula I have excluded ie Argireline and all known Botox like effect peptides but I include a couple of peptides from its creator, he has created a new company after he sold Lipotec to investors.

    I have a vast arsenal of actives already and quite a few formulas for various applications for both cosmetic and otc field, all tested with 100% success. If you're interested send me a message and we'll talk, I have already loads of results and I plan to set this formula on clinical trial myself as well. Also, there are actives out there that you have no idea they exist, the most expensive one that I have found costs around $15K per KG and it's not bee venom or such.

    Thanx everyone for the input, you helped me clear my mind and move forward.
  • And the other eye
  • I am pretty sure Oil of Oley doesn't do that even with a truck of cream unloaded and spread over the face... Please note that the above is a 5 minute result...
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @Dreamer77 - thanks for your comments and insight. I'll give you a bit more of mine on the subject of actives. Feel free to skip it but your posts have just inspired a little reflection of my own.

    I don't believe there are high end actives that are proven to do anything particularly special. In fact, if these ingredients actually worked as advertised they would be illegal drugs in the US, but let's ignore that for the moment.

    I have been in the cosmetic industry for multiple decades and have seen numerous raw material suppliers bring around all kinds of actives that are supposed to work as well as botox, restart hair growth, magically give you porcelain skin or whatever. And these aren't cheap ingredients. $15K per KG, sure. If they can get some sucker to pay that, they are doing their job well.

    But I also know this, these actives are invariably BS marketing stories. When asked for the science, it's either not provided or the stuff that is provided isn't science. It's pseudoscience designed to look like science but is actually designed to bets market an ingredient. There are innumerable tricks companies can pull to make their "active" ingredient look like it is doing more than a blend of petrolatum, glycerin, and mineral oil.

    Science is not about proving what is true. It is about proving what is not true. Only after numerous failed tests to disprove a hypothesis can you say something is true. Selling cosmetics & raw materials however, is about proving what you want to be true as true & ignoring anything that might contradict your proof. This is not science and it is not convincing to people who are interested in what is true.  

    I've read the literature and studies on a vast array of peptides. I don't find the data or studies convincing. I realize there are scientists who are convinced but most of these people either haven't taken a critical look at the evidence or they have a bias in wanting it to be true (e.g. trying to sell the ingredient or a formula with said ingredient). 

    You are convinced that peptides have an effect? Why?  (And I'll address this to anyone else who is also convinced...what evidence am I missing about peptides as active ingredients?)
  • Perry I really enjoy reading your posts, I have been following you for quite some time now already, even before I joined in over here, if I am not mistaken I must have read some of your  articles pubblished on ULProspector as well.

    You are quite right you know on what you are saying, however, my approach on creating formulas is not just make the cream add a fancy peptide or more add a perfume and that's it. I am after the result of usage.

     Personally I have evolved during my course of emulsion making. I have started all that thing by trying to cure someone out of psoriasis, knowing nothing regarding the illness whatsoever, I was just trying to impress her (she was a female that I liked and found this way to approach her). On psoriasis I had no real luck, however thought my research I have discovered and evolved formulas that can actually cure other skin disorders, never pubblished anything innparticular out of fear of being destroyed by traditionally strong players (aka the drug industry).

    Anyway, on this particular formula that we are talking about I have included quasi-drug materials and actives that I have found to exist out of my personal related work.ie I am producing a tincture out of three plants, ethanolic extract. This tincture has an extremely fast wound healing property. However it is something that I create, uncertified and clinically not tested. So I did my homework and discovered certified materials clinically proven to work that are relared to my tincture, they are not as efficient as my personal product but they do the work that I am after.

    I am not a victim of the marketing, Perry, you may be thinking of that as you do not know anything about me, I am a pharmacist trying different stuff. I could go on and on talking about my work and formulas however I am not here for that.

    For me most peptides work, I carefully study their clinical trials before applying them, this face formula of mine however is not just peptides, its chemistry combined with humal physiology, not just another peptide cream. I have managed to freeze time with that combo I have made and my only concern is to make it even more efficient. As it is now its a face emulsion that one try is enough to create the desire to buy it, I sell it on a glass jar with no label on it, which is cheap and costs $1, however the result is such that the buyer keeps coming back and so on, no advertising and no fancy packaging...

  • Yeap, problem solved...no shift in colouration, I removed it from the "oven" and let it cool down on room temperature, no colouration of any kind...not the slightest change of any kind!!!
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    How long was it in stability? Generally in my experience it can take up to the second or even third 28-day testing periods to see oxidative changes.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Perry was right, it wasn't oxidation, it couldn't be anyway, the active ingredient I mentioned above has to be responsible for the colour shifting, it presents some sort of incompatibility with the gelling agent, an incompatibility that I cannot explain.

    Tested it alone with the gelling agent, mixed it with water, then added the gelling agent and the water based gel was created, however in the beginning the colour was light yellow, as time passed it turned into dark brown... I just finished formulating again excluding it from the formula, I am pretty sure that the problem is resolved now.

    I left it in the oven in temperature of almost 60C so as to accelerate things a bit more, I don't have the time to wait for it to change colour on its own.. I am going to send samples of the formula to my female testers tomorrow.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    Dreamer77 said:
    I am pretty sure Oil of Olay doesn't do that even with a truck of cream unloaded and spread over the face... Please note that the above is a 5 minute result...
    I wouldn't be so sure...

    But the reality is that before and after pictures are junk science. They aren't good proof of anything. In both your pictures and the ones highlighting the Olay product, the lighting is completely different in each picture. 

    It's simple to create an illusion of an effect just by using different lighting. 

    This is why I don't find before and after pictures compelling.
  • Well, my before and after photos were done by me in the same room with the same lighting using the exact same cellphone with no filters applied.

    I had no real intention to show off my product but I feel I must share this info with you, the results I am having about two years already testing, enhancing and improving the formula. 

    Sure thing lighting makes a real difference on before and after photos but here even though lighting might not be the same wrinkles dissapear and faces look calm and lighting has nothing to do with it.
  • And please note, the above pics are 5-10 minutes after 1st application, not 2 weeks. All photos were sent to me by the users and are selfies. Personally I do not approve that as the camera used for selfies is a low quality one that tends through software to present images more beautiful and flawless than they really are. I work with photos taken with the high quality camera found on the back side of the cellphone, without using any filters, taken indoors with artificial lighting.
  • I have many photos, before and after of the botox cream (that's what I call it temporarily) I used a small sample of photos where I know that I have permission to use them. And this represents only a small part of what my products do. The funny thing now that the problem is solved is that I have to reduce the % of the perfume used as now it smells really strong. No big deal however. 
  • After seeing the photos you post Perry a single thought swirls into my mind....God I should be living in America, I would be rich by now....
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    ...In both your pictures and the ones highlighting the Olay product, the lighting is completely different in each picture...
    So how comes that in all of your pictures, the right one looks like when I hit the 'auto-adjust colors' button in IrfanView? Everything seems altered: brightness, contrast, gamma, saturation...
  • I don't adjust anything, I don't know how to but even if I knew I still wouldn't do it as I work to improve the details I see, these results on my photos are as real as they can get. And without using powders to produce soft focus effect (which means there's still some room for improvement). After that it's the plastic surgeons. The formula is not for sale and I am putting it on clinical trials myself on my expense. I have created a product that will compete and win international competitions, it will be sold to the entire EU with a price tag of over $300 per jar on it I have been working on this project 3 years already and have managed to sell over 10,000 jars of it with a price tag of $100 per jar, with no branding, packaging, ingredients list,advertising etc.no middlemen (so far). The most interesting thing however is that when a client stops using it and goes to another brand they discover that the result achieved with my product is second to none and they return back to me. The product was designed to create results not just a good impression of hydration and constructs some sort of psychological addiction and dependence of its use and so far my results and repeated sales back this up. And this is only one formula, I have more and like I said not all of them are cosmetics. A few are OTC creams and a couple could be classified as medicines. Take a look on my scar repair formula 
  • You can talk to me about lighting now...thank you all
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Dreamer77 said:
    You can talk to me about lighting now...thank you all
    It was a serious question, no reason to go cocky.
    BTW the latest trick available here around against scaring is simply a blend of three different cp silicone oils (10 g for > 40$). The best thing is still the base cream and proper care, not fancy ingredients ;) .
  • I feel like this is a troll post... 
  • DavidDavid Member
    Women share their striking transformation photos showing what they look  like before and after make-up
    It is not a troll...cosmetics rules!

  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    you said these pics are 5-10 minutes after 1st application, not 2 weeks. If you can show me in a10 minutes video that the skin heals like that and the eyebrow grows like that, i will purchase your Product in bulk. 50kg at first purchase. 

    If it is difficult to find something like this again, the eyebrow part would be easy. Shave your or someone elses eyebrow, apply the cream and let me see if it is growing back like this or at least half like this. 
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited April 8
    Yes...I would also like to be a test subject for your hair regrowth cream.  That is impressive how that eyebrow grew back.  I have thinning hair, and would like to test the product for this alternative use.  You can PM me on this forum.

    All though I am concerned with the skin lesions that develop within 5-10 minutes of use.  Should I be concerned?

  • abieroseabierose Member
    Yes...I would also like to be a test subject for your hair regrowth cream.  That is impressive how that eyebrow grew back.  I have thinning hair, and would like to test the product for this alternative use.  You can PM me on this forum.

    All though I am concerned with the skin lesions that develop within 5-10 minutes of use.  Should I be concerned?

    This one managed to dye her hair in that short amount of time as well!


    🤣

    No but seriously, having been in the graphics design industry for the last 20 years, I know  photoshop like the back of my hand and let me tell you, you can do ANYTHING in photoshop...whiter teeth? No problem! Thicker hair? Sure thing! Less wrinkles? Easy peasy! Common sense? Well, even photoshop has its limitations 🤷‍♀️
    If it sounds "too good to be true", it probably is. 
  • Ok, it was my mistake for not explaining properly the time frame for each photo....the eye photos are 5-10 minutes after 1st application....the two faces also are 5-10 minutes after 1st application...the old lady is 1 month of use...the scared face is 2 months use of the scar formula
    ...seriously you thought that the old lady improved so quickly in only 5 minutes? Come on these do not happen even in the Hollywood movies.... I just posted results of some products I make.... I do not know how to use of photoshop may some of you do... I forgot to mention also that I have a private group on Facebook where I have members/clients on invitation only, there I post my results and my clients criticise/review my products....so far I have about 850 active members and still growing...also, I do not use silicone at all in any of my products as I try to keep up with the current trends of the market

  • Also, you can't afford to buy straight away 50KG of the profuct, its current cost lies at about $350/KG
  • Among my clients there are Judges/politicians/actors and generally people who can afford an expensive formula, ex-clients of LaMer Laprerie Este etc that can tell the difference between an expensive cream and an effective cream... I didn't come here to show off or sell my formula,. I had a question that buffled me, cleared my mind through analysis and bamm problem solved...basically I can do a 5 minute result even on the face on the old lady but this would raise the cost of the end product that would be scary high and I would not be able to sell it.. there's a zillion actives out there and the key is to make a cost effective combination that will create me a good profit....now I am developing two other formulas, one is for skin tightening on the neck/decollete and is based on the scar formula while the other is regarding to weight management/cellulite treatment/water retention/skin tightening....so far both have excellent results with remarkable improvement in only 7 days of use.... 
  • 7 days of use application twice daily...
  • Like I said, if I lived in America I would be rich by now....
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    Dreamer77 said:

    I'm skeptical this was the work of your cream alone with no laser treatment involved since there're HIP, HIE lesions and boy what a poor stiching.


    Dreamer77 said:

    Back to the original post formula, Wasn't there an Australian brand put a product that create similar effect to this out around 10-15 years ago?
    It comes in  white/purple tube, anyone remember the name?
    So you are not the first one.
    It's been a long time since I heard the name Oil of Olay.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Pharma said:
    Dreamer77 said:
    You can talk to me about lighting now...thank you all
    It was a serious question, no reason to go cocky.
    BTW the latest trick available here around against scaring is simply a blend of three different cp silicone oils (10 g for > 40$). The best thing is still the base cream and proper care, not fancy ingredients ;) .
    Can i ask which silicone oils?
  • What can I say, I haven't experimented yet with Oleic Acid, I have luxury butters that are high in Oleic acid but am so busy with the Covid outbreak that I don't have time to evolve new formulas and exploit those as well...

    I own a private pharmacy an old pharmacy with a reputation on the field, I do not formulate for a living. If you like you can buy that for $5M,

    However, I have evolved a paste for wound healing that outruns every product on global level, a standalone product that eliminates all known products used on wound healing and burn healing. Just like Aspirin it should be included in every hospital, portable pharmacy kits etc.It works on everyone even diabetics too with 100% success. The only time it did not have a result was when the person was take anticoagulants, you see the paste stops bleeding as well. I have tested it already on children 5yrs up and adults up to 90yrs old, dogs cats and horses, with no side effects whatsoever. It heals up every superficial wound in 1-3 days and 1st-2nd degree burns in 7-10 days with no scars left behind upon cure and closure. If you like you can buy that for $100M. I am not willing to send anything but you are more than welcome to travel to my country and meet me in person. I also have loads of photos before and after. It also outruns the retinoids that are being used  to cure  severe acne and cystic acne. Retinoid treatment normally needs 1-2 months to cure cystic acne, my paste cures that in less than a week leaving no scars behind. It has a ridiculous low cost of production and it can generate Billions in sales if exploited properly...

    Back to the original formula, I have not a single clue of the Australian brand to which you refer, 10-15 yrs ago I was still a student in the School of Pharmacy and had no idea I was going to evolve like this... I never claimed of being the first one, the are other formulas that create this effect (those normally rely upon using Argireline to high level usually about 25%, toxicollogically they are safe ) mine just takes it a bit further and its result does not rely  on powders creating soft focus effect, the user does not require to stand still at all, plus, if for any reason the face gets washed after the application the result still remains and its gets amplified as time passes...

    The girl on the photo with the scar, she was involved in a car crash, she lives about 700kms(500 miles or so) away from me and I was contacted by her family, the stitching was done on a public hospital and I treated her since day one.right after the stiches were removed..the photo in after is not the final result, today nothing is visible, I just posted this as I had it handy...
  • Abdullah said:
    Pharma said:
    Dreamer77 said:
    You can talk to me about lighting now...thank you all
    It was a serious question, no reason to go cocky.
    BTW the latest trick available here around against scaring is simply a blend of three different cp silicone oils (10 g for > 40$). The best thing is still the base cream and proper care, not fancy ingredients ;) .
    Can i ask which silicone oils?
    He must be referring to mix of 350,100 and 50 cp silicones and create some sort of silicone hydrogel..
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Abdullah said:
    Can i ask which silicone oils?
    The product is made by Stratapharma. The label says 'polysiloxane, siloxane resin'; the former is also known as dimethicone. Obviously, not even the sales rep knows which ones exactly.
    I've tried it and it feels different than, say, pure 350 cp. My guess is that it also contains a volatile or very low viscosity one besides the liquid 'base' silicone alongside the high MW film forming derivative. Its a quite well spreading gel which dries quickly and leaves a film for many hours which is super hard to wash off even with soap.
    I'm not saying silicones are the only thing which works (though they work great, especially if not used in emulsion form). The main thing is proper wound care.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    The anecdotal evidence in this post is persistent. There are ways to quantify these results. What instrumentation has been used? Has a Claims Substantiation Service (crucial) weighed in?
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • The anecdotal evidence in this post is persistent. There are ways to quantify these results. What instrumentation has been used? Has a Claims Substantiation Service (crucial) weighed in?
    Definately, soon I will come back with official numbers.  I have arranged for some basic tests, skin hydration test is the cheapest one. The clinical tests are the most expensive ones but I will have them performed anyway. Recently I have started another type of investment which has set me back, however I am really pleased with the results I have so far as my formula is destined to be  the queen among the creams that circulate out there.....so far the unofficial results back up my claim and give me confidence when I am selling it, like I said, one application is enough to convince and create a new customer.

    also, regarding scar treatment.... I have never used silicone on skin formulas, I prefer using other materials..sure thing silicone is cheap as hell but its not luxury or premium, I use dimethicone however when I prepare the anti-lice hair lotion I make...... basically I have used a US patented formula as a starting point and evolved it so as to be effective on the eggs as well.

    there is a difference between a good emulsion and an effective one....if you do some research here and there, specially on patented formulas or pubblished clinical results you can have a good starting point which will help you formulate something both unique and highly effective, especially if you invest time energy and money into it, that's why I needed 3 years of sourcing and testing actives, butters,oils, extracts, emulsifiers and so on only for a single formula...the best thing however is that I have created quite a few unique things as a result. 
  • Pharma said:
    ...In both your pictures and the ones highlighting the Olay product, the lighting is completely different in each picture...
    So how comes that in all of your pictures, the right one looks like when I hit the 'auto-adjust colors' button in IrfanView? Everything seems altered: brightness, contrast, gamma, saturation...
    Top to bottom, I photographed 1-5...the others were sent to me by the users... I work with photos, I ask them to send me photographs so as I can see their skin, flaws, problems as I work on these issues... really I do not know how to adjust those parameters and honestly I wouldn't bother as there's no point for me doing that..
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Pharma said:
    Abdullah said:
    Can i ask which silicone oils?
    I'm not saying silicones are the only thing which works (though they work great, especially if not used in emulsion form). The main thing is proper wound care.
    Can you provide some more details on this part"especially if not used in emulsion form"?

    Does emulsion form reduce the effects of silicone? If yes,why?

    By forms other than emulsion, do you mean mixing silicone in oil or another silicone?

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